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Updated on Tuesday, May 5

#20928

OMG: Does it bug anyone else that Canada subsidizes education heavily, and people from Waterloo go down to the States without looking back? Canada needs engineers, and it seems like it produces some of the best in the world. It's such a shame that people seem to forget it so quickly.

I mean, it seems like nationalism/patriotism has received a negative connotation in the last few years, but to me it gives life a purpose.

Honestly, I'd just like to hear people's opinions (born in Canada, immigrants, everyone).

38 comments

  1. I think that if the Ontario and/or Federal Governments want university graduates to stay in Canada to work, then their policies should result in a job market that incentivizes such a decision.

    "The government subsidized most of my education" isn't going to make me feel obligated to stay in Canada if the job I want is south of the border and pays better. It's not like graduating from the Royal Military College, where I actually am obligated to put in a certain amount of military service after receiving my free degree.

    Canada need more engineers? Then those who employ engineers in Canada should be making it their business to make this a place where engineers WANT to stay and work. That's all.

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    1. I tend to agree with #1. Unfortunately wrapping myself with the Canadian flag doesn't feed me or if I have a family in the future. I made the mistake of nationalism before and it just bit me in the ass.

      I also think it depends on what the degree is and the location as both can vary greatly.

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    2. Exactly. The fact is the job market is a centimeter wide and a centimeter deep.

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    3. Depends on your field 1b. And your province.

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    4. 1.a here. I also, to take this a little further, think that there is a huge brain drain from the get-go with many students forgoing attending a Canadian university and going directly to the States or EU. Canadian universities and businesses, from what I've seen, are notoriously cheap, yet they expect gold. It's something of a broken system.

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    5. 1.d is RIGHT on the money. Canadian businesses are timid and cheap. European and American companies will err on the side of paying upfront in the hopes of getting a leg up. Canadian companies wait for someone else to do it (whatever 'it' is) first.

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  2. I don't think the number of people who go down to the states is that high. A lot of people do it for coops but don't move there permanently. I'd like to do a coop in New York (mathbus not compsci/eng), but I'd hate living in Jesusland in a permanent setting

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  3. What bugs me is when international students complain that their tuition is too high when they don't pay Canadian taxes.

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    1. Yeah. We should also start cracking down on the children of poor Canadians whose parents don't pay a lot of taxes. I mean, come on, right? You fools already won the birth lottery by being born here and now you're not even going to have your parents pay their share for your education?! wtf

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    2. I'm pretty sure the sons and daughters of the party members who get to drive beamer's courtesy of the hard working people of China's oppression won the birth lottery

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    3. There's more than one way to win.

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    4. Tuition *in general* is too high. But the international student complaint is definitely off.

      For domestic students, the government pays half the cost (in advance), and then students pay the remaining half (less if you get OSAP or any other form of student assistance).

      International students simply don't get a 50% subsidy out of tax dollars... which is fair.

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    5. @3.d That's actually not true. If it were the case then we would be paying double the domestics' tuition which is not the case. We're paying at least three times as much as Canadians pay.

      @3 I am an international student and I would be glad to pay whatever taxes the government makes Canadians pay and get an education for the same tuition.

      If you really have a problem with international students and want to blame them for something, don't argue about tuition because it's clearly not fair.

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    6. 3e, it depends on your program. Not only does the University not make any kind of profit off of international students, they actually lose money on them. Instead of providing universities with a massive per capita subsidy like they do for domestic students, the provincial government actually forces the universities to pay $800 per international head. Universities accept them anyway because it looks good for reputational purposes, and because many int'l students are able to get scholarships/other sources of external funding.
      (Note, the vast majority of what I'm saying applies to int'l undergrads ONLY... grad students are a bit of a different story)

      I have no problem with international students. I actually think the province's policies are self-contradictory, and greater measures need to be taken to create incentives for international students to study AND work here. BUT I also understand that the idea of using Canadian tax dollars to bring down tuition costs should ultimately be limited to... well... Canadians. At least in the default sense. I wouldn't mind the government committing some tax funds to cover a certain amount of promising international students for each university. But that would require a provincial government that has money to spare... which ours really, really doesn't.

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    7. I'm an international student and it isn't actually fair nor justified.
      I paid $17,000 this term alone.

      The argument that international tuition = domestic tuition + government subsidy is not entirely true at all. We had an unjustified increase of 9.2% out of nowhere (they are just maxing the legal increase)

      It also does not make sense based off of other countries' tuitions that are significantly lower for both domestic and international. I'm not talking about the US and the UK (that's fucked) but even Quebec is way cheaper.

      I'd really love to understand why it's so expensive, and as an undergrad I wish all my money didn't get funnelled into shitty grad research

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  4. > Does it bug anyone else that Canada subsidizes education heavily...

    Yes.

    > Canada needs engineers, and it seems like it produces some of the best in the world.

    We totally produce some of the best engineers in the world. Not the all the best engineers, but some of them. Or all of them. Or not. I mean, how would you know, really?

    And we sure do need more engineers. Many, many more. Too bad there isn't some sort of automatic thing that happens when some product or service is really in demand, and supply is flexible. Oh well.

    >... but to me [nationalism] gives life a purpose.

    I think you'll find the purpose of life is actually sports. Or nationalism. I forget. But definitely one of those.

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  5. If you want me to stay in Canada, fucking pay me. It's one thing if it were a 10-15% difference, but it's 30%+. I just can't justify the differenc with QoL. I'll come back after I've worked my fill in the US.

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    1. >High Quality of life
      >America
      lolololol way to pick a shit tier country

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    2. Clearly not an engineer who's experienced working in the bay area.

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    3. @5a: if you're earning over 6 figures you're well into the top 5% of US earners. The USA is a shit place to be poor but a great place to be rich. And if you're getting paid over 6 figures you are not worrying about health care, because that's taken care of.

      From a self-interest POV, it's about the best choice you can make.

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  6. I am sorry to hear that it is nationalism which gives your life a purpose.

    The fact is, countries exist to serve monetary interests of a select few. I mean, we could totally create and implement another system which promotes the prosperity of all life. But for now, the idea of a "country" is used to maintain the interests of those currently in power.

    All of humankind is equal and we are all on this path of life together.

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  7. American here:

    While I love Canada as a country, once I finish my CS degree I see no reason not to go back. Quality of life is pretty much the same, but the money is so much better it is laughable. No reason to stay here and be underpaid.

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    1. I guess since you'll have a good job and stuff you're right. Being able to afford insurance goes a long way, but I wouldn't call being one injury/disease from total bankruptcy a great way to live. Even if salaries are lower, you probably won't be able to handle the 100K hit if you get cancer...or have 3 kids.

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    2. ^ or course that's all just excuses. The incarceration rate and existence of FOX is enough for me to stay away.

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    3. I like how people will mention Fox but never WNBC, who is astronomically worse.

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  8. There's an argument to be made that engineers going to the states can be a good thing, because they can always come back with the resources they gain there. The states is the big leagues - where the smartest engineers, the smartest execs, the most venture capital is. Don't you think a Canadian who has succeeded in the States is good for Canada?

    Case in point Vidyard. Those guys were SYDE engineers, went down to Y-Combinator, got the business training, got American money, sold to American businesses, and now they have a 100+ office right here in Kitchener. That's 100+ well paying, recurring revenue, benefits etc jobs created because two guys went to the States first.

    Globalization is your new reality. There are more opportunities than drawbacks - you just have open up your mind to see them.

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    1. Amen. I know of some people who are choosing to stay in Canada after some American co-ops, out of choice.

      Taking the time to learn in "the big leagues" is an incredibly valuable way to gain skills, which can be applied here later.

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  9. Maybe you voters can vote for a government that will spend money on technology sector rather than oil sands and then there will be more jobs and higher salary to convince more engineers to stay in Canada.

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    1. LOL. Yeah... government giving money to private businesses is NOT the solution here.

      What we could use is a Provincial Government who makes it easier to do business in Ontario. Lower hydro rates would be a good start - right now we have the most expensive electricity in Canada, and a lot of companies find it easier to set up shop south of the border for that reason alone.

      Stimulating innovation comes down to a lot more than just "government spends money on tech."

      Ultimately, if Canadian businesses need engineers, then Canadian businesses need to figure out what they're supposed to do differently to attract them.

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  10. People can choose where they want to live and work. It's your life...

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  11. Engineering grad here who's going to the States do to grad school. The main reason I'm not staying in Canada is because 1) we have shitty graduate programs for my field, and 2) I'll get paid below minimum wage if I do a PhD here. If there were more opportunities, I'd stay.

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  12. You also have to consider that other countries subsidize Canada. I had to go Emerg once last summer. I saw two physicians, and each one had a medical student with them that were doing their practicum of whatever and preparing for their exam to get their license here. They were both friendly enough so I was chatting with them and as it turns out they were both recent immigrants from Persia. I doubt Canada is paying Persia back for their education.

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    1. Do you mean Iran ? lol
      I agree with what you said though. Canada is, actually, one of the countries that benefit from brain-drain. Just look at Skilled Worker Immigration Programs and the number of international students (who usually settle in Canada afterwards).

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  13. 12 a if you knew any Iranians you'd know that with few exceptions they still call their country Persia and themselves 'Persians'.

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    1. I don't know any who call their country 'Persia' but most call themselves Persian.

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    2. Fuck you, Alexander.

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  14. I have lived in this country for 23 and am getting out ASAP. for the past 6+ years the economy has been circling the drain and every day I seem to feel less unsure about my rights. Moving to a country with some opportunity considering the things Canada had going for it are degrading.

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  15. Ni hao ma. Come live with me again Alex

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